Men and Marriage
Posted by Raven on November 15th, 2007
Is this good advice?
Men and Marriage…
DON’T DO IT. And DON’T HAVE CHILDREN either.
The popular topic I’m seeing on blogs the past couple weeks.
I linked to this site last week:
Let’s not blind ourselves to the realities. At this time, the legal obligations of the marital state fall de facto on the husband. If the wife becomes dissatisfied, she can simply declare “irreconcilable differences” and haul stakes, taking any children and much of her husband’s income and savings along with her.
Men complaining about the imbalance of the perceived power between the sexes.
I found this the other day:
For many men (and some women), marriage has become nothing less than a one-way ticket to jail. Even the New York Times has reported on how easily “the divorce court leads to a jail cell,” mostly for men. In fact, if I have one urgent piece of practical advice for young men today it is this: Do not marry and do not have children.
Well isn’t this helpful in this debate? The author here claims he’s trying to save the institution of marriage by telling young men NOT TO GET MARRIED or HAVE KIDS…until the laws change regarding divorce, of course. And conveniently.
Then we read shit like this:
A child a man agrees to have is one thing, but should a man have to pay child support when he makes it clear to a woman that he does not want one?
Jennifer Spenner for the Saginaw News and Kathy Barks Hoffman for the AP wrote about a Michigan man who recently challenged being forced to pay child support for his girlfriend’s baby — despite what he alleges were her assurances that she couldn’t get pregnant because of a medical condition, and her knowledge that he didn’t want a child.
He made the point to the court that if a woman can choose whether to abort, adopt out, or raise the child, a man should have the same right, and argued that Michigan’s paternity law violates the Constitution’s equal protection clause. Matt Dubay lost the case, which he previously acknowledged was a long shot — but should it have been?
Since when did men remove themselves from personal responsibility here? A woman does have more choices when it comes to birth control, some of which I am against (abortion)- but men have choices here as well. Having sex with a woman is a choice. Using condoms with spermicides is also a choice, that often kills the chances of a pregnancy.
Never is it more true than here: You play and you might pay.
Children are not cheap to raise.
Men complain about paying financially. Women pay in many other ways.
Unscrupulous ladies are out there for sure. But not all of us are like that; in fact I dare the numbers are very few.
To me, the center of the problem is simple. Women are taking control of their lives; they no longer chose to stay in marriages that are not fulfilling and healthy, unlike the old days when women had little choice in these matters. For better or worse, women have a say in their lives and I don’t think men like it very much.
I agree that men get screwed over when it comes to child support and alimony issues yet I have seen examples of their behavior that tell me they don’t want the responsibility of kids. I know more than a handful of couples who are divorced who have younger kids. In several cases, Dad was offered custody of the kids and in each case he balked and walked away from the opportunity. Mom even offered to pay child support! And alimony! Mom was viewed as being cruel and awful for even considering turning over the kids to Dad. I don’t agree with my female friends and acquaintances who have given up custody but I respect their choice. These women wanted to be totally free of the day to day grinding of raising children on their own; they wanted to skirt their responsibility- something men have always had a choice with. Society has yet to be more accepting of these choices when it’s Mom who makes them.
So what about marriage? Is it an exercise in futility?
I found this article to be extremely timely right now- I am not a religious person but these words resonate loudly:
“He who finds a wife finds a good thing, and obtains favor from the Lord,” and he who nourishes a wife preserves a good thing and maintains the favor of the Lord.
God allowed you to find your wife because He believed you would take good care of His precious daughter. This is why you obtain the dual blessings of having her and pleasing Him. But what happens when you don’t take good care of your wife? A man who neglects his wife makes her miserable and then she makes him miserable. As the saying goes, “When mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.” But she isn’t the only unhappy one. I believe you also anger God by betraying His confidence in trusting you with her. After all, what father is happy when his son-in-law fails to keep his darling content?
Since bashing women is the trendy topic of recent weeks, let’s look at why women choose to walk away from marriages. We can safely assume she isn’t at all content or happy. She has needs that are not being met.
I’ve been to many weddings, and I have yet to see a woman stand at the altar promising to “love, honor, and obey so long as you both shall live” while thinking to herself, “I despise this man, and I expect this marriage to make me miserable.” Not likely. She stands there with hope, anticipation, love, admiration, and the expectation of great joy in her heart. Unfortunately, if you fail to meet her needs and fulfill her hopes, she will not stay that way. The best way to ruin a good woman is to marry her and then fail to give her what she expected to receive.
Like it or not, women are emotional and needy creatures. We have feelings and hormones and monthly cycles that get in the way of the perfectly logical world of men. Women are not robots and we cannot be treated as such. A woman who feels loved and respected will move mountains and heavens to please her man. Never doubt it. A woman who feels little love or respect will become bitter and antagonistic. Make no mistake about that. In the old days she would give in and settle for a life of misery…not anymore. She will give up and leave.
Oh, sure, perhaps she exerts a tremendous effort and manages to stay sweet and wonderful in spite of you neglecting her. Even the Bible teaches her to love you into being a better man. But to expect or demand this from her is naively optimistic and, quite frankly, unfair. There is a much better way: the Biblical way.
Hell no…women are not going to put forth any effort when their needs are being neglected. This talk about the Biblical way means little to me on it’s own…but for many it might have more weight.
So, what does it take to have a great wife? Simple. Be a great lord. And what does it take to be a great lord? Equally simple. Know the needs and desires of your wife and meet them. If you don’t, she will become just the sort of wife you don’t want: nagging, withholding, bitter, and frustrated. God gave you a beautiful flower. He does not expect a dead thorn bush in return. You’d have done better to remain single than to so ruin the beautiful human rose He entrusted to you.
That’s the simple part. It may be unpleasant to ponder, but it’s simple. Your job is to nurture, cherish, love, honor, serve, provide for, lead, impress, and protect your wife. And if you never stop doing this, the chance that she will be a great wife is very good. Yes, she retains free will and may fail on her part, but, when you do your part, it becomes much easier for her to do hers.
Ripped apart, this all means:
And since I’m mentioning SEX,
Anyone else have other thoughts? Is marriage a waste of time now a days? For me, it is. But I am an odd penny. Should we be advising our young not to get married and not to have kids??
November 15th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Oh, Raven… EXCELLENT post! I found it just as I need to go get the girls (yah, I got one sleeping over tonight), so I’ll comment further when I get back… Good stuff!
Luv ya, sis!
November 15th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Wow Raven you sure know how to be annoying
I followed your links and was amused to see some fellow leave a comment at one of the sites saying basically that his “right to have sex” is being taken for granted by women who might not be honest with her use of birth control. That hit me with a nail. What a fellow he must be.
Men don’t have the right to have sex.
Men don’t have the right to have sex without responsilibity. They go together. Judgment and trust have no place in the early days of a relationship, and NO place on a one night stand.
GUYS: CONDOM UP.
When men have sex they must be willing to share the so called burden of a child that may be the result of sex. In other words guys: MAN UP.
Women use this against men, on the other hand. They know a man will most often accept responsibility and offer to help pay for, raise and otherwise father such a child. Some men will even offer to marry still in this day.
You list of advices for men in a relationship appears to be mainly for married men but it can be useful in long term committments as well. Most of your list is accurate but you forget one thing:
Women are full of secrets. They sometimes don’t open up to us. Just when we think we have a problem solved, we find out it’s far from over. Women hold grudges and never forget. I believe you are right when it comes to communicating. When we get that right, most other things fall into place. About that sex stuff. How is a man to know when he’s doing it right if the woman lies to him and tells him all is great? When in fact it is not.
Women will forvever mystify me.
Excellent article Raven and I was really kidding about the annoying part.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
OK, I’m back from picking up the kids, so let’s see what I can type before I get called to help with homework
First off, although I am not in favor of ONLY “Abstinence Only” programs, men and women these days appear to forget that the only guaranteed method of contraception is… NOT TO HAVE SEX!!! Condoms can break, the Pill can fail, spermicides don’t get everything, and diaphragms can slip. Therefore, anyone who makes the decision to have sex, even with precautions, must accept that there is a risk (slight though it might be) of pregnancy and disease. Period.
Certainly there are people out there who are maliciously manipulative and deceitful, who will try to shirk their duties, or rope someone in to a financial commitment, but I have to agree with Raven that I think people like these are in the minority. HOWEVER… With the way our culture is promoting sex, casual sex, hook ups, meet ups, sensuality, litigation, nanny statism, juvenile behavior, and a lack of responsibility, I can see this sort of entrapment increasing over the next several years.
What does it all boil down to? Personal responsibility. If men and women take control of themselves and quit trying to find a scapegoat for mistakes that are their own DAMN fault, a lot of the ills of our society would disappear… Including divorce!
Far too many people go into marriage these days because it’s convenient, or the “thing to do,” or “just because,” or “for LOOOOOOVVVE,” and have no understanding of the self-discipline, responsibility, sacrifice, and COMMITMENT that marriage requires. I am fed up with people getting divorced because “s/he doesn’t make me happy any more” - you are responsible for your own happiness. YOU are in control of your emotions and future. How about “Well, we’ve just grown apart”? Well, how about you dedicate yourself to growing right back together, then? It’s the indifference and the lack of stick-to-it-iveness which makes these marriages - most marriages, IMO - fail, which only points up our poor attention span and our avoidance of commitment.
Shall I be really archaically stone age? I would love it if people were prohibited from getting married without going through a long, difficult, and intense marriage orientation, compatibility exam, and creedal overview. Their views on commitment, children, finances, schooling, goals, personal responsibility, religion, communication, &c., would be dissected and examined so the couple would be forced to really REALLY scrutinize themselves and their relationship to make certain they’re in the marriage for the long haul. I kinda figure that, if people are willing to go through that sort of irritation, then they’ve proven their commitment.
Didn’t/doesn’t Louisiana have “covenant marriage” on the books, where a couple going through something like that process would be permitted to file for divorce ONLY “for cause” (infidelity, abuse…)? Something like that.
*sigh*
I dunno, Raven, it’s sticky, nasty situation. But, as I said, the main problem is a lack of personal responsibility on everyone’s part.
And, I think I’ll stop now!
LOLOLOL
November 15th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Joe, people have told me I can be annoying with my thoughts and opinions. That’s a good thing, it means people are pondering.
Women are mystifying to men. We’ve always been that way. I think its because men put little effort into trying to understand us. They tend to blame everything on the hormones, LOL which may be a legit factor. Also men are full of themselves. Yes. They do think they are the better sex, the smarter sex, the this and the that. (Not all men but the vast majority) Is this bad? I dunno. But I do know that when a person thinks they are above another, they tend to look down upon that other. They belittle and brush off the concerns and opinions and interests of the other. I have seen this happen thousands of times to women, being treated as a less important being in the relationship. Those who stand by and take this are stupid.
Women hold grudges??? Yes we do. We’re not all capable of forgetting. Most of us are overly capable and gullible when it comes to forgiving though. I think nature makes up for this by making sure we never forget….Most men I know cannot let go of things either. They hold grudges like glue holds paper. In this I think we’re all the same.
As far as women keeping things in, we tend to do that to keep the peace. We pick and chose our battles. Most things, for us are not written in stone and we don’t feel the need to take a stand. We are capable of compromise. Over the years though and thru episode after episode of being brushed off, some women gather all the thoughts and collectively reflect…and react in a very negative manner. That negtivity comes back to haunt us. Which is why I think COMMUNICATION is SO VITAL. Women need to tell it like it is and hold nothing back. No need to pick a battle now or later. Deal with it as it happens.
And the sex thingy. This really pisses me off to no end. Women will lie and tell the men they’re wonderful lovers, when in fact they are not. The men go around thinking they’re some stud when they are not. Men never get a chance to truly hear how awful they are with sex, and therefore they cannot fix things. It’s too bad. Sex is something that is so good, so important, so intense I don’t understand why women cannot aim for the best.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Kat? You’re doing a sleepover? On a school night? God bless YOU. Hehe!!
Excellent points about birth control. Heck look at me! I got fixed (lol) and 17 yrs later…ended up knocked up! Birth control is never a guarantee and boys and girls and men and women SHOULD know this. They should be smart enough to take precautions and steps to protect themselves- but realize nothing is foolproof.
And you’re absolutely right about the modern culture rot that has created this environment where sex is just a hobby or habit and nothing more. I could spend endless hours ranting about this…
Marriage councelling (sp?) is something they did back in the day, my Mom told me yrs ago. She went to a camp for Catholic girls on this subject. The men went too. Now? ha! It’s a joke to even mention it. People get married for many wrong reasons; they think playing house will be all fun and games. It’s not. It’s WORK. Hard painful work at times. Kids add to the stress of it all. Money mixes like oil and water; it’s not all pleasant.
I’m not one to preach anything when it comes to marriage. But after reading all those sites and taking in all the women bashing, even from the likes of Dr. Helen (whom I believe is just adding cess to the pool here BTW)- I felt a strong need to defend women. Somewhere in all this rhetoric we’ve lost what used to happen: Women were forced to stay in loveless marriages where her husband was constantly cheating on her and even lived with other women (1950’s); we’ve lost that women are a smarter and stronger being now and although she makes mistakes, she doesn’t have to live with them. I kicked my husband out after 5 yrs of pleading and begging and demanding and all that nonsense- to CHANGE back into the man I once loved. He took total and unconditional advantage of me and my love for him. He refused to communicate. He refused to share. I gave him many many hundreds if not thousands of opportunities to WAKE UP- he ignored it all. SO he got the boot. And I have been a much happier, more content and much more confident woman ever since. Sometimes divorce is the right thing.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
UUUGH Joe…I just saw the comment from the guy who cried his right to have unattached sex was being threatened by lying conniving women. BWAHAHAHAH!!!
What a dumb fuck he is. With that attitude he may never get fucked again and it would serve him right.
(Sorry Kat for the language.
)
November 16th, 2007 at 5:13 am
Raven, I finally met ‘Mrs. Right’ after a few close calls when I was stationed in West Germany. I was 25 years young when we first me after being introduced by a mutual friend. Somehow I knew this fraulein was going to be Frau Vader. The first two movies we saw when dating were ‘The Alamo’ & ‘Cleopatra’. John Wayne and Richard Burton came through for us! Compare Hollywood then to the Hollyweirdos now?
For some of us, “…till death do us part” still means something. The words ’sacrifice’ and ‘partners’ and ‘honesty’ and ’selflessness’ are crucial in a successful and long lasting marriage. So far after 25 years (in three weeks), so good…. make that great!
November 16th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Heh. I had a “sleepover” because the Friend’s mom had to go up to D.C. for the night - they take the Munchkin when we need to do similar things. And, the Friend knows I’m Nazi Mom and don’t put up with any shenanigans (she’s actually better behaved and less whiny for *us* than for her parents, *snicker*). I also put them in separate rooms to sleep so there’s no midnight chatting. She’s a good kid, and I like her and her parents (I’ve spoken about them to you off-line… Can you figure out who I’m talking about? LOL).
And darthCrusader, congratulations on 25 years of successful (note I didn’t say “blissful” - no one can maintain bliss constantly for that long, LOL) marriage. My Beloved Husband and I just completed 21 years this past summer - but we can give you a run for your money if you want to count our 4 year engagement
And Raven, luv, re: language… Your blog, your style, your rules! Silly woman… you know you’re only saying what I’m thinking! [sends BIG hug]
November 16th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
darth- I’m happy you met your Mrs and have been together 25 years! That’s wonderful and RARE in these times.
I’ll write about it but when I was younger and a teen I never went on a date. Or to a movie. Or a prom…I missed out on all those opportunities to test the waters and find the right person for me. Hence, I am divorced.
I think a major problem with finding the right person is the instant gratification thingy so many think is important now a days. Waiting to find the perfect person is wasteful too…we have to have a happy medium.
November 16th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Well Kat God did bless you then!! I recall having sleepovers on school nights and separating the kids only to find them sneaking into the rooms together and staying up all night…giggling and yacking and what not. LOL, them were the days. I don’t miss it at all either!
November 16th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
LOL - Well, it is MUCH harder to do the sneak-into-other-rooms thing when *MY* door is about 4 feet away from both of their doors… Plus, they fall asleep pretty quickly
November 17th, 2007 at 2:29 am
PS: Raven … before I enlisted in the USAF I had a wonderful two-year engagement go bottoms up…Very very painful …. But after four years had passed (and what a dirt-bag I was to felines and COLD AS ICE / Foreigner)… God meant for me to bear my cross and go else where. No doubt about it!
At this time my parents were living apart and divorced after… 35 years! The lawyers sucked ‘em dry for the most part - the bastards. I learned from their pain and ordeals I guess. To have a spouse as one’s lover, friend, great mother and wife, etc… is a blessing and proof that a mixed marriage works: a German Lutheran and GI Joe Conservative Catholic! DON’T GIVE UP THE SHIP!
November 17th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
awe darth…I think people have to know what a broken heart is before they can know what true love is. Really. I learned much from my parents marriage too- like what to NOT do as a wife and what not to accept as a wife. I also learned what a respectable man can be like…when sober anyway. I had a lot of issues with my parents but I learned to forgive and move on. They taught me a lot in so many different ways, some not good at all. If anything I learned what NOT to do.
God bless you and Mrs. darth…
November 17th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Well Kat part of the problem with my kids sleepovers was ME– I was a kid at heart and sort of kind of ok, I KEPT THEM UP with goofing off and all that.
I admit it.
It was me. Playing with the kids. LOL.
November 18th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Men are simple. Feed them. Hand them the remote and a beer. Kick them about when they need it though.